Jacs Takeover: Chat with Dean Leak
Good morning, everybody. This morning, I am delighted to welcome Dean Link in our podcast takeover from Scott Flair in One Day at a Time with the Turtle program. Dean is an absolute mindset guru and has had an immense impact on my life and on so many other turtles. We're pretty stoked that you're here with us today Dean.
Speaker 2:I am absolutely delighted to be joining although I just had a moment of realisation that I'm stepping into Scott's podcast which hadn't really dawned on me until now which yeah I feel like an impostor. I mean, I've got to try and live up to the the legend that is Scott Flair, but always a delight to chat to you, Jax.
Speaker 1:So on that note, actually, you've you've immediately woken up and got us thinking about being who we want to be and being our best selves in scary environments. So now that you are dealing with imposter syndrome and being Scott Fleer, what are some tips and tricks you use in your own life to deal with imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's imposter syndrome. It's something that I spend a lot of my time helping others because it comes from a genuine place whereby I've experienced it at times and to an extent where it's been really crippling in my life. And I guess kind of going back to go forward a little bit, you know, I'm from a really quite humble background. Actually, me and Ryan share our family down in a place called Exmouth down on the coast in a place called Exmouth in Devon. And yeah, the mum hairdresser dad was ex military as a soldier, came out not long after I was born and it works for BT as a whole life that she just retired.
Speaker 2:So, know, from a a place where, you know, I was always that kind of like, I was the first child and you know, I'd I'd always been labelled as this nice boy and you know, I guess was not academic in the sense that I was smart in terms of the the results that I achieved as I sort of progressed through early school days and and into kind of GCSEs and A levels and university but I was somebody that was maybe a chip on my shoulder or at least was trying to prove something. Maybe that was born out of trying to drop this label. But I guess that manifested in a fair amount of insecurity and inferiority perhaps and constantly needing to prove myself and facing, I guess, a narrative that played out in my mind at times to an extent that I realised later on that it was, you know, really quite crippling and anxiety inducing and you know, you have those moments in your life where you're like, I just need to do something about this. I I can't continue like this and something needs to change. So, I guess through the feelings and the emotions and the thoughts that I experienced, you know, in my teenage years and we can go into some, you know, particular examples of where this was born out.
Speaker 2:But that was why I was massively passionate about psychology and understanding the mind and human behaviour and why you know I sort of I'm proud of being you know somebody who is a people person and that manifested through the influence of my upbringing. So I don't know if that answers the question, but when it comes to imposter syndrome, can relate very easily to some of the common experiences that you might experience around that phenomena.
Speaker 1:Well, it sounds like your wise driven a lot by. Yeah, exactly what you were saying, where you came from and the stories that you had been brought up to believe about yourself and perhaps had told yourself. Were there any particular role models that stand out for you in kind of moving your mindset along over time?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I always find this question really hard to answer because there isn't anyone that I would go like definite role model, but there's definitely some people that have had a significant impact in my life. So you look at Professor Steve Peters and how he helped me personally, from that point of going through university and not really enjoying it a huge amount and coming across his path and him really helping me to kind of manage that anxiety. I always use the example of public speaking like Jack's, honestly, like I would at university, I would avoid any possible situation where I could potentially be in a situation where I might even have to talk. And I was like, I just can't even give my opinion here because I'm definitely going to be found out for being a fraud and like definitely going to come across stupid.
Speaker 2:You know, and that was that point in my life where I was like, I can't carry on like this because it's not good for me and therefore not good for anybody else. So Steve had a massive impact in my life. And then, you know, throughout my life, I've had loads of mentors and I've always been somebody that's always seeked, you know, that council and that support and, you know, therapy, for instance, is something that I would 100% encourage like people to do because, you know, it's self awareness is the absolute key for you to going back to your point earlier. If we're wanting to live our life in alignment with what matters, well, we need to understand what does matter. Now, we need to understand what might hold us back.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, I I find it really hard to answer the question because there isn't anyone that naturally comes to mind apart from there's like a chain of people that have had a, you know, an influence in the way that I've kind of, yeah, tried to navigate this weird and wonderful world that we're in.
Speaker 1:I'm actually you triggered something for me there when you were talking about your fear of public speaking. So obviously with Turtle, which was previously Love Like Louise, You weekly host catch outs with large groups of women. Now, not only is it intimidating because we're asking you to public speak, but we're also an intimidating bunch, potentially, just because of the large volume of women. How have you overcome that and how are you finding it these days?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know me well, Jackson, I'm somebody that speaks how I feel, so I'm really comfortable with being vulnerable. And I always start from the perspective that human beings are amazing but we are fundamentally flawed and you know we're imperfect. And I've I've learnt that based on the way that I've evolved and the way that I've grown through life. The sooner you start to accept that, can actually start to do whatever you want in life. So I guess the whole idea of like me wanting to help people is because I've gone, hang on a minute.
Speaker 2:Like, I'm not saying what I figured out is right because there's so many different techniques and ways in which you can overcome your challenge. But one of the things that I've learned is that acceptance is really critical for us to actually move forward in a way that matters to us. So, you know, the Zoom calls and the public speaking was overcome by really immersing myself, that kind of exposure therapy as it were to go into those situations and sit with that discomfort and go, actually, this is fine. And the more that I do this, the more that I'm going to be able to overcome and face those difficulties that, you know, I've, I've faced and, you know, Zoom is a, is a really good example where, you know, it just, you get more comfortable with it, and, you know, you, you learn from those mistakes and you treat them as lessons, but you're also lovely as you know I can't really you know it's it's great banter. Everybody's lovely to each other.
Speaker 2:It's all supportive. And and my point here is that you know there's nobody that I know and you know I've been really fortunate to have supported some pretty high performing people and they struggle with the same things. They struggle with imposter syndrome. They struggle with self doubt and you're going, hang on a minute, like, we all suffer from this and actually like, as as we can start to kind of admit that and have that serious conversation with ourselves and say that's okay then you can move forward but it's that kind of are you willing to go there in terms of facing that and you know finding your way of being able to overcome it. Do you resonate with that Jack?
Speaker 1:I completely, I'm sitting here nodding. Yeah, no, I definitely resonate. I mean, I don't know if you remember and probably not, but when I was just a face in the crowd of all the new joiners and new turtle I didn't talk on any of the Zooms until the last third of the octagon challenge because I was so intimidated. I've grown up being afraid of speaking because I've got a unique voice and I've had lots of positive and negative feedback about that. So to go from there, and with your coaching and the turtle program to.
Speaker 1:Even taking over Scott's podcast is just crazy to me and and a huge part of that is the role modeling and openness of. And your story Dean and the story of other turtles that people being brave enough to share, which leads me to an interesting
Speaker 2:question. Just that point, Jax, think your example of like doing this podcast is a really great example that we can all learn from, which is there's a really good opportunity here that I would love to do because I know it's going to help me. But then all of a sudden, I've got this inner voice that probably feels like a bit of an impostor, but actually, like the way that I'm going to overcome this is by noticing that and actually continuing to do the thing that I want to do in pursuit of becoming a better person.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's incredibly freeing when you feel like you're being your best self, even if actually, you did a post today about and if you don't follow Dean, check out his Instagram. And the post today was around really appreciating the journey you're on rather than the destination, but you said it in a way that was much more eloquent than I did just then. So it's part of it is is when you can see yourself growing and changing and and moving in a direction to be the person you want to be, it is incredibly freeing. The journey has so much more meaning when you start really seeing those positive changes in yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, 100%. I had a I had a really interesting conversation on day and going back to this point around, you know, trying to inquire. And there's a balance between that because sometimes we can overthink things, developing that self awareness and that inquiry around what's happening you know to a psychologically can be can be really freeing from the perspective that we can do something with it. And I had a conversation with a psychiatrist in body actually. And it wasn't that I was the patient and he was psychiatrist.
Speaker 2:We're actually doing some work together, which really exciting that's going to be coming up in the future. And it kind of turned into sort of a therapy session, but we certainly were coaching each other. And one thing that really emerged, which really surprised me and it triggered me initially, which was an interesting kind of avoidance response. But he said to me, you have ever considered seeing anybody or perhaps you might have already been diagnosed with ADHD. And I was like.
Speaker 2:Wow, I didn't didn't see that coming. I was like, go on to explain a little bit more. He was like, well, it's just really interesting. There's a couple of things that you said and that I've noticed, and I just wondered whether it might be something for you to explore. So we explored it because my initial reaction is like, people with ADHD have hyperactivity, right?
Speaker 2:There's a sort of quite fidgety would be the way that you might describe it. And I was like, that's just not me, I'm quite contained. So I've learned like strategies to try and manage how I might be feeling. And I explored it a little bit further and there's actually sort of two ways that you can diagnose it. There's your typical ADHD, which is your hyperactivity, but you can also have what they call ADHD.
Speaker 2:So I was like, okay, going to read this out. Some of the kind of symptoms that you might notice within this type of ADHD is someone who often fails to give close attention to detail, has trouble holding attention on tasks that gets easily distracted, doesn't often seem to listen when spoken to directly, doesn't often follow through on instructions and fails to finish tasks, has trouble organising tasks and activities, avoid dislike reluctant to do tasks that require mental efforts, often loses things necessary for tasks and activities like your phone or wallet, is often forgetful and is distracted by stimuli. And when we went through this together, I was like, oh my, that is me. Literally, like word by word, that is me. Now, why am I sharing this?
Speaker 2:It's diagnosed as not necessarily, but what it showed me, which was really interesting, was that sometimes a diagnostic or a coaching conversation can actually bring about a way that might describe some of the symptoms that you might be experiencing. Now, for me, I mean, it'd good to get your take on this, Jack. There might be some things in there where I'm saying that's me and you go, that's definitely not you because you might be seeing it in a slightly different way. But what we find is that it isn't about the categorisation that necessarily matters. It helps us raise awareness of it.
Speaker 2:So for me over the years I've developed coping mechanisms to make sure that I can manage some of those symptoms that I find difficult like getting easily distracted. So the mindfulness based activities that I would talk people through, I've really practiced over and over again so that I can try and find ways so that I don't get distracted, so that I can refocus my attention. The things like forgetting things, I do it all the time. And I'm like, this is probably why. And actually, for me, it's like going, Okay, well, that's great.
Speaker 2:But like, what can I do about that? How can I celebrate this as being like a real super strength? Because I think it is. I think like, you know, we're not good or bad. We're just humans that have been influenced by things and personality, etcetera.
Speaker 2:That means that this is where our energy goes. So I'm like, actually, this is like amazing because now I can do something about it. You know, when I constantly go into Zoom calls and I'll say and I'll do this, Jack. I'll be like, right, guys, I'm just about to press record and literally I'll get distracted and I'll forget about two seconds later. Genuinely like and like losing things all the time.
Speaker 2:So I'm like, okay, what have a better like kind of micro system for me to help, you know, help me navigate some of these things that, you know, they're just not my skill set.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. I mean, I completely agree. There are a lot of people listening probably. I know definitely turtles out there who it's the unknown that's overwhelming and a diagnosis or self awareness or whatever you want to call it, a framework of some kind can give you that structure to problem solve within.
Speaker 1:So then you know what you're dealing with. It doesn't matter that you're dealing with it as much as knowing what you actually have to tackle in the first instance.
Speaker 2:Yeah absolutely. It's okay to go through life having you know maybe not had I don't know therapy or or a diagnosis around such a thing. You know and and it it's a word isn't it? At the end of the day. It's a it's a diagnostic.
Speaker 2:It it is not black and white but it might help you to overcome some of the things you might be challenged by and that's why therapy can be great because now I can trace back and you know and I spend a lot of time kind of inquire around these things where there'll be some things that have happened to me in my life where I go you know that's what happens but actually like it was my interpretation of what happens that created you know some of the perhaps stressors in my life. I always remember my A level tutor said, Dean, there's no chance you're going to university. You know, so, you know, my instant thought from that was that he's probably right. But then you think about it and you go, how dare can somebody say that to me? That's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:You can never tell somebody they can't do what they want to do. So then you develop this belief that I would need to prove people wrong and therefore I should perhaps be a little bit cautious about like leaders intentions. So therefore you might develop some rebellion type behaviors. So, you know, it's just interesting to go back because when you can explore what happens, you can retell the story in a way that perhaps serves you right now. You kind of recalibrate your values.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. No. I'm I completely agree with it. A big changing moment for me was. When I was all about 14 that I had carried with me through a 14 year old lens and it was only when you started talking about that you know as an adult if I had observed a coach talking to a child the way that that coach was talking to me what would I have done, how would I have perceived it, what would I have thought, and suddenly the blame that I'd carried from being a kid thinking about as an adult was just incredibly and served me so much better, as you say today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You also like you learn to forgive yourself. That's the liberating thing from this because it's that moment where you realise that actually the only person that can change is you. And therefore, if you create the story, then you have the ability to change it. So you actually then take responsibility for it. You know, example that I've used a few times when my mates would say to me, you know, you can see how this becomes like a real self fulfilling self fulfilling prophecy around, you know, you know, you come with some stupid things sometimes.
Speaker 2:And by the way, I definitely did like we're kids, right? You say stupid things. Yeah. But then goes, well, well, you know, they're absolutely right. You know, I I didn't do very well at school.
Speaker 2:I'm not very academic. They're all super intelligent. So therefore, you label yourself as a stupid person. Okay. And as I explored this, the self inquiry piece, I looked back and I was like, what happened here?
Speaker 2:Well, that's what they said. Okay. But actually, was the one that created the suffering through this narrative that played out afterwards. So I became I became like a character in my own fictional story. And then I was like, ah, that's really interesting because I create that.
Speaker 2:So I can now go, hang on minute. That's not true. That's not facts. Like, this is who I am. These are my strengths and this is what I value in me.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I just waffling on a little bit, but I kind of find it all quite fascinating.
Speaker 1:Right. That's fascinating. What I was also thinking, I recently had a new baby girl, little puppy, and that's super exciting. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:But I know it wasn't easy and that puppy faced some big hurdles overcame for such a tiny baby. And I was wondering, you know, we talk a lot about reflective mindset and you know the past and revisiting the past that. Were there any particular skills or, you know, practices you put in play to help you get through such an incredibly emotional and traumatic period for your whole little family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. It's a great question. And I guess that I'll probably answer this in a different way, you know, in a couple of weeks, a couple of months, a couple of years, but it was a fairly acutely stressed moment. So Poppy's how old is she now? She's like 13 I think.
Speaker 2:So she's pretty young. Had a challenge in pregnancy in terms of some uncertainty. And then just really quickly at the six week scan the lucky sort of like check up with the GP. They they realised that long story short she had heart failure which meant that she had to go and have surgery which didn't work and then had to have surgery the following day which is more open heart. And there was a genuine moment where the world stood still and me and Mandy thought we were going to lose her which was the first time where I felt like I had experienced pretty acute stress and you know so there's there's kind of like how do you like how do we manage that in the moment and then what's your reflections on that?
Speaker 2:But in the moment, if I'm being honest, Jack, it's like it's it's really quite hard to deal with that because there's not really much you can do about it when you're told that the surgery will probably be done in twenty minutes and that, you know, it carried quite a big risk of her being cut because of the bruising that she might have had. So, then, still be waiting three hours later. You know that there there's a time where you're like I know I'm going to find out about this. But the brain was kind of looking at the probabilities that it might be something that's you know not the outcome that you'd expect or want. So the way that me and Mandy kind of manage this is that we're walking around London progressively getting more and more anxious and catastrophising and being, you know, as I said, like an outcome that we were hoping that wouldn't be the case.
Speaker 2:But I guess we co regulated each other by having those moments whereby one of us would have like an outburst of like either tears or, you know, trying to rationalise in that moment and she would do the same and then I would calm her down. So actually, that was quite helpful for us. So I guess the learning from that is the power of sharing and talking about it. Because, you know, when it's in that cute moments and you know that you're going to find out quite soon, you've got to try and just find your way. Knowing know in your mind that, you know, it'll pass whatever the outcome is.
Speaker 2:And I know it's quite a cold way of looking at it, but, know, it's, you know, you're, it's not something that's going to potentially last forever. And that's the way that we managed it. But I think when you go for experience like that, you've, well, certainly I do anyway, thinking quite cautiously as about how, what impact does that have on you that therefore may rub off in the environment that you may therefore create for that child that's coming into your space. So straight away, can see how there's a lot of, you know, potential to go down the path of worrying and protecting her. You know, you've got this child at all costs and therefore, you know, do you become that parents where, you know, you're risk averse and you try to save them all the time.
Speaker 2:And I know that's real contrary to Mandy and I's belief. So, you know, we're we're aware of that and we have to help each other to make sure that we don't create a, you know, overly protective or crippling environment because we know that that will manifest in all sorts of trauma down the line.
Speaker 1:And it reminds me actually, you once talked about, you know, the importance of understanding your why and understanding your values. And. My sister actually once pointed out to me that if you get into crisis situations, if you have clarity and agreement on what those shared values are with your partner or in a team, then in those crises you're so much more better able to cope because you're aligned emotionally on what you want to be and what you want to act and it's kind of the tougher decisions that you have to make and sounds like you're mandy have shared values and little poppy set up for success there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, every context is different in a Jack's, you know, in a different pressure situation, you know, you'd have a maybe a different framework or technique that you might use. But, you know certainly in a when I've been in other precious situations you know you're right. You know you need that sense of clarity as to what the mission is. You need you know everyone needs to understand what their role is within that. You know you know need to make sure that trust is the foundation for you know working off that shared goal.
Speaker 2:But yeah, in those moments, it's literally like, what can we do to help each other to manage what is a quite terrible situation, but we will get through this. Yeah, wouldn't wish it on many people, but in these situations that don't look back and go you know these are failures. These are you know these are genuine lessons that you can choose to you know help you grow.
Speaker 1:Amazing though. Amazing mindset there. And then I have had a number of questions come through on Instagram asking how you're going.
Speaker 2:How many how many inappropriate questions?
Speaker 1:Many, many about inappropriate, actually. So I'm not going to say you're
Speaker 2:just not to go into it. Come on, bring it on. Let's go. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's start with the easy one. What I was going to smoothly move into was what do you enjoy most about fatherhood?
Speaker 2:What am I enjoying most about fatherhood? I can't help now think what questions are going to come. My mind is like trying to control the situation, be like, what is she going to say? Going about fatherhood. I just love it in every single way.
Speaker 2:And you just don't quite know until you have that little baby in front of you as to what it's going to feel like. But the sense that you've like created this amazing human being and that you can just give it the cuddles and the like constantly like kissing her on the head. It's just yeah, again, we're going down to that kind of like smothering her, protecting her is just so lovely. And I just yeah, it's a conversation that me and Mondi have at the moment, which is really live and it's so important. Communication is I don't want to become this person that feels like I have to work the whole time because I love my job.
Speaker 2:Like, I don't want to be, you know, reflecting back in years time going, I've missed it all. So I'm making real conscious decisions and taking conscious action to make sure that I'm putting in, you know, a good chunk of time each day to spend it with her, which is really important to me.
Speaker 1:And then it's awesome. There were a number of questions in terms of your chunks of time that you spend each day. How much time is dedicated towards your scarf choice?
Speaker 2:I actually think that I need to expand my choice because being somebody who loses things quite a lot, I've lost many scars in myself. Many scars, and they they are my pride and joy. To be honest, I don't spend a huge amount of time because I'm getting to that age now, Jacks, where I don't really care about what I look and feel like. Not that I care what I feel like, but I'm getting to that age where Mandy's like, Dean, you need to sort your wardrobe out, mate. And I'm like, you probably do.
Speaker 2:You probably need to buy a few more scarves.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. You had a specific question from Scott asking, what colour scarf does your chimp wear?
Speaker 2:What colour scarf does my chimp wear? Probably some sort of like green and red scarf because it remind me of Scott who's the biggest gorilla chimp that I know.
Speaker 1:And actually for those listening if you haven't learned about the mental monkey or the chimp have a look at Dean's Instagram. What is your Instagram, Dean? Dean
Speaker 2:Leak Coach.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So give Dean a follow. I can highly recommend you.
Speaker 2:How was your conversation with Scott, by the way? I actually haven't I hear too much of his voice on a on a on a almost daily basis. So I just haven't got the time to listen to it. But was it useful?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. No. He's got those dulcet Welsh tones, but soothe every situation. So, no, great person for me to speak with to start this new adventure for me and and taking over his podcast. And he, you know, really insightful guy, really smart guy.
Speaker 1:That was awesome.
Speaker 2:I hate hate to admit it. I don't know if he talks much about vanity, but I know that's something that he really values quite a lot.
Speaker 1:Which actually is a question that a few people were asked is how did he get involved with not Scott's vanity, but Live Black Louise, which is now Turtle?
Speaker 2:Yeah no it came out of Ryan so me and Ryan were exchanging a couple of messages at the time because as I said like we've got some family back in Devon and we hadn't really interacted a huge amount up until when was it 2019? Think it was where exchanges and messages and we obviously shared interest in personal development and mindset. I sent him the article which you'll totally resonate with Jack's around commitment versus motivation. Yeah. He was like, oh, this is really cool.
Speaker 2:Like we need a bit of this. And then I met Ryan and Scott up in a WeWork and it went from there. Had a session, I think a couple of weeks later with Louise as well. The four of us got together and we yeah, we mapped out some of the mindset stuff around the Octagon Challenge and we hit it off like a house on fire since then. But yeah, no, know, you know, I deeply love supporting the community.
Speaker 2:I really believe in the brands. You know, I love being a part of the family. You know, everybody's great people. You know I feel really lucky and privileged to be a part of a really cool tribe. So yeah thank you and it's great to meet people like yourself Jacks.
Speaker 2:It's you know sort of genuinely mean that and you know all that it brings and you know I love that.
Speaker 1:My last question that's always been really interesting to me about what people respond so I'm going to ask you. You've been given a turtle you can't give it away or sell it what would you do with the turtle?
Speaker 2:That's a really random question.
Speaker 1:I'm now
Speaker 2:overthinking this. So speaking at the moment, like what can I say that's either funny or really meaningful by both of them? I think that Because because I genuinely believe in the mantra of turtle and what it stands for in terms of slow and steady and doing things in a consistent and persistent way and all of the things that we have discussed in terms of what that mantra stands for. I would use that as a reflective symbol to keep me on track with the things that matter. I know that sounds like a bit bullshitting and it's like what the hell are you talking about?
Speaker 2:But sometimes we need those reminders of these are the things that matter. We talk about have your values, but write down and be really specific about what that means to you in terms of a definition and your behaviours. And so for me, would keep it close to me as a symbol. I would probably spin it around to remind ourselves that we need to have joy. Our time, you know, time in our day that we go out and do the things that we really enjoy and spinning a turtle around.
Speaker 2:We'd probably be quite cruel but quite friendly as well. Love
Speaker 1:it. I love it. But is your turtle gonna have a name?
Speaker 2:I think I'd have to call it Scott because reminds me of I don't want to be someone who's vain. And there's a lot of stuff that I like about Scott as well. So, yeah, I'd probably call it Scott.
Speaker 1:I love it. Alright. Well, Scott the turtle, myself, everybody listening, super grateful for your time this morning, Dean. And, yeah, thank you for all of your wisdom and insight. Certainly really should be a little turtle thinking of signing up.
Speaker 1:You'll get to meet Dean. I think you're doing weekly morning sessions, aren't you, in Octagon? Is that right?
Speaker 2:Scott and I are just working through, like, what the best way is to achieve that, Yeah. Through technology. So, yeah, we'll get some clarity on that soon, but we will definitely be doing something mindset related for show.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you very much. And, yeah, talking to doctor p tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Wee. What a legend.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Awesome.
